Zheng Zhongtian
Currently studying for a master's degree in the history of science and technology. Do some musicals in the spare time, Sondheimian, station B @. Between the absurdity of drama and the absurdity of life, I tend to choose the former, but I often try to return to the latter from the perspective of a historian.
Interview transcript
Interview with Fa He
Interview time: April 18, 2023 15:37-17:17
Interview location: Wangjing, P4 Theater
Interview method: face-to-face interview
Interviewer: Zheng Zhongtian
Interviewee and introduction: Fa He, male, about 30 years old, independent theater creator and actor who lives in Beijing, manager of P4 Theater.
Others present: Liang Mingzhen (drama club friend)
Topic of this interview: The peak of the new coronavirus epidemic I have experienced
Q: First of all, we use November last year to January this year as the peak period of the new crown epidemic. Before that, we had experienced the epidemic for three years. Can you give some examples of how you/your friends/theater cast members have been affected in their working lives?
A: In the past few years of the epidemic, first of all, all large-scale performances and theatrical activities have been axed. In fact, all these official projects have been axed, including various commercial performances. So actually the biggest question is: What should practitioners do? They want to eat. My place (P4 Theater), in a sense, cannot be said to be amateur, it is just a more experimental place. So many actors who lost their jobs due to the epidemic came here. During the outbreak of the epidemic, many actors who had been able to find good jobs in the market and had good performance experience were free and had nothing to do. They found out that there were still some recruitments and some performances in P4 Theater, so they came to give it a try. Of course, a particularly important point is that ours is not an employment relationship, but a creation-oriented one. It is more of a theatrical idea to be activated in this way. So, (we) are still different from the commercial dramas on the market. As far as I know from many situations, there is no soil or room for drama in the overall environment. A large number of theater practitioners cannot actually make money, and they are also very anxious, but they still want to rehearse plays, no matter how loud they are, and then they come to me. There are quite a few such people.
Q: Are they still there now?
A: After the epidemic has recovered, some people have returned to commercial performances because they want to make money, and this is their special skill. After all, they have a basic salary. Most people have returned to this state. A small number of people may have felt something different in such a creative process, and they chose to start more creations on their own initiative. In a sense, this is like an incubation base. Many young people who are ambitious or impulsive and want to act, come here to try it out, and find that they can do it, and then they start acting on their own. We have many such actors here.
Q: In fact, during the three years of the epidemic, your own work was actually focused on P4 Theater, right?
A: First of all, I returned to China in 2019 (study abroad). The first job I looked for after returning to China was as a portfolio teacher. I worked at Galaxy SOHO. It took about half a year to stabilize this job. I used to devote myself to theater work on Saturday and Sunday nights. Later, when it became more and more stable, I just caught up with the epidemic and worked from home. At that time, I turned more time to the creation of P4 Theater. Later, I also changed my job from full-time to part-time, but the main source of my income is still the portfolio of study abroad works. Most of my money is still invested in the theater, which means that I spend all the money I earned from my part-time job in it.
Q: Do you have any close family members or friends who have been greatly affected by the epidemic in the past three years?
A: As far as physical health is concerned, I think everyone has survived, including my parents, relatives and friends around me. They are all doing well. I have a grandfather who is over 90 years old. He also got COVID-19, but he is still doing well.
Q: Is it during peak period?
A: Yes, it's okay if you get it during the peak period. The other elderly people actually died before the epidemic, so they were not greatly affected. Not myself, anyway, but I've heard too much about it. There are many friends, especially those whose grandfathers, grandmothers, grandfathers, and grandmothers have passed away, which is too much. This is what I heard. There are many funerals.
Q: During the three years of the epidemic, I had another concern, which was "Killing That Rose" that I mentioned to you just now. After that incident, it seemed like you had left the original theater venue. What I want to ask is, is it more related to the epidemic, or is it more related to this musical?
A: That's right. In fact, when we produced "Killing That Rose", it should have been June of 2021. At that time, the popular "Drama New Life" had not long been aired, so everyone was actually yearning for drama. At that time, the sponsor Liu Ziluo was also a very enthusiastic girl, and she was attracted by our recruitment. At that time, our recruitment was called the P4U plan, which meant that a bunch of people would work on a movie for a month. Of course, the P4U plan had some very detailed rules when it was released on our official account, such as: everyone must be strangers, everyone must be recorded, and everyone must be photographed (the entire generation process)... Anyway, it is very detailed.
We vacated the large theater at that time, and dedicated this month from May to June to the production of "Killing That Rose." At that time, many people were recruited, and hundreds of resumes were received. During the continuous screening process, or in other words, the screening process, I actually gradually had some differences with the opinions of the sponsor, because I felt that, in a sense, when the sponsor initiated this musical project, some problems began to appear in her direction. As a theater company, I will intervene intentionally or unintentionally. I emphasize more - for example, amateurs are very important. As a space called P4 Theater, we especially encourage non-professionals to come here to try and express themselves.
Q: Was this your philosophy from the beginning?
A: Yes, this is one of our missions. But when it comes down to it - because the sponsor has a lot of initiative, even if she just comes with an idea, we will support her. Including her, she is not actually from a professional background. I remember that she studied management, but she especially loves musicals, so I think there is no problem. But during the resume screening process, she tried her best to include professional people (into the group). We have a lot of interviews, but in more cases, she actually brings in professional people - for example: I graduated from the Chinese Opera, or I am a professor from a certain music conservatory, or a teacher from a certain school. Why! Then you join our group. You are an amateur, right? Then you're sorry, bye. You're a hobbyist, sorry, bye. In fact, I had some differences with her at that time, and these differences continued to expand later. At which point? A very important point among us (P4 Theater) is that in the process of establishing the crew, everyone must be strangers. Because we have discovered this problem in previous practice, that is to say... it is particularly easy to produce nepotism. Don't look at the rehearsal process of this little drama... you all laughed, I know you must know it too. Wherever there are people, there is politics. So what we particularly emphasize is that we are all strangers. Relatively speaking, in the political formation process, one is that (nepotism) is not that strong, and the other is that negotiation is easy, and it is not based on the background of "I am familiar with him, so I have to stand with him." But in fact, her subsequent operations broke such rules. She uses a person-to-person method, that is, "Hey, you are from Chinese drama? Can you call some of your classmates for me?" "Can you call some professionals for me?" However, those non-professionals will continue to be excluded, suppressed or devalued in the creation process of this drama. For example, she asked the lower-level (crew members) to do some hard work, and she was getting more and more squeezed. It's funny, during the recruitment process-because of this sponsor, she also worked for ByteDance-she finally hired a producer, who was also from ByteDance. Because of the highly efficient operating model created by the Internet atmosphere-or something, I don't quite understand-in fact, everyone is slowly being alienated into a tool man. But this is actually what I wanted to, how should I say, question when I was making this drama. What I want to do is co-creation, and I must emphasize that everyone's opinions are added (in the production of the play), not a pyramid-like structure, not a director-centered system. In particular, provided that we are not yet in the position of an employment relationship. Our entire design principle is: I will free up the space, and you will create. First of all, I say that this space itself has a cost, but I am willing to bear this part of the cost. Then when everyone comes to create, it is relatively not a mentality of "I pay you and you work for me." Everyone is an alliance of fans in an aggregated way (forming a crew). But what's interesting is that even if there is no employment relationship, everyone can gradually form such a hierarchy. This makes me wonder sometimes, why is this possible? I feel like you might be like this in college clubs as well. I think it's very strange! Obviously we are all equal, but why did you end up commanding me, you became my master, and I worked for you? And the problem is you haven't paid me yet! The creation of this thing is very strange.
In fact, it was very difficult to produce "Killing That Rose" because after we established the theater before, Shao Hua and Xiao Lu Lu also helped to make it. But by the time we did that show, it was just me. The previous two people had some disagreements, and some even quit midway, so the pressure was relatively high. But I really don't have enough energy in management, so it becomes increasingly difficult to shake the solid pyramid structure. But I also found many problems: many people are marginalized, or many people are actually very aggrieved and depressed in such a structure. Then, even if we look at this creative process, many good things are actually born, but due to time constraints... and the musical itself is a very difficult thing, we completely underestimated the difficulty at the right time, because it is different from rehearsing a drama. In a drama, all I need to do is speak. No matter how bad I act, will I not be able to speak? But the music has to be in tune. This is too difficult. And there was still a month left, because she changed actors many times in the middle, so the rehearsal was actually only completed in four or five days, and many actors were replaced temporarily, which caused a lot of unnecessary losses. Of course, they did a very good job in promoting it - because the producer was produced by ByteDance, which is very powerful. They sold a lot of tickets and the ticket sales income was very high. I remember that the show sold nearly 8,000, which should be considered very good. Then when they first listed them, the cast list was all about medium-sized dramas... and they all looked very high-end. So a lot of tickets were sold. Then there is a problem at this time, that is, the thing advertised and the final result may be very different. When I saw them rehearsing again and again, I also felt very worried. On the one hand, I thought: How should I end it, or how should I respond to this thing? Because the process of their generation is also very complicated. I think if it ends hastily like this and the audience comes to watch it, I think it's not a drama, or it's not interesting enough. Of course, we also have a recording team that is always there. This "P4U Plan" has a very detailed 3P team, which uses an observer attitude to generate a more complete record and response to this event. So at that time, just a few days before the play was about to be performed, it was possible that we had such a conflict. In a sense, I, as the manager, host and initiator of P4, Liu Ziluo, had a conflict between the crew and the theater. Because I think, first, I invested a lot of energy, even the venue, water and electricity were borne by me. This was a huge cost investment, but the final result was actually very inconsistent with my expectations. What I thought was that on the day of the performance, I would also give a responsive performance. That's what we were like at the time, that is: OK, it's okay for you to act, but I will do it again later - because this was agreed from the beginning, and we as a 3P team also had to make a work - a recording work to respond. At that time, there were about seven or eight people in the 3P team, and there were nearly 30 people in their crew. This number alone included forty or fifty people. We finally came up with a way to respond, that is, we hypothesized... Our 3P group discussed at the time that our play was called "Killing the Rose", and its plot was about the process and thoughts of a girl who was raped online. She turns out to be a star, a favorite student of a musical theater professor. As she continued to become famous, her nude photos appeared on the Internet, claiming that she had a relationship with the professor, but they were innocent. It's probably a story like this. In the end, under the pressure of Internet violence, this girl was in extreme pain. She could not survive or die, and was drowned by the Internet flood, so it was called "Kill That Rose". The last creation was...I don't think it was that strong. In fact, it was because of the (limited) rehearsal time and various seemingly efficient work execution modes, but in the end, the trust relationship between people was not established, which led to... Including the singing, to be honest, most of it was out of tune, because it was indeed amateurish in a sense, and the running-in period was too short.
Q: Even though I deliberately hired professional actors.
A: Yes, but that is the so-called professional actor. They look like (professional actors), but they still don't have the high quality of a real professional musical actor, and there's still a big gap. Maybe he's a puppet show major, a musical theater lover, or something like that. In addition, the conditions and equipment of our theater are difficult to compare with that (professional musical theater). Because musicals...for example, if they need microphones or some reverb, it can't do these things. It's really... I think musicals and dramas are completely different things. I didn't know until I finished doing this. I didn't expect it to be so difficult before doing it! Musicals are difficult, and the arrangements are very complicated. At that time, the musicals really relied on global connections to find (compose), and they found some musician in the United States to compose, but what they did was very experimental. In the end, they were passed, and they found someone else... Oh, I was also very uncomfortable. There were so many talented people, and in the end I felt that they were not born well, and I was very sorry. Then again, we were preparing for the performance. On the last record of our recording team called the 3P team, we said: Hey, how should we respond? At that time, we designed a set that was both inside and outside the play. Oops, now that I think about it, it is indeed, how should I put it, very thrilling. After the entire crew finished their performance, the curtain came down, and then we designed another link: suddenly, the theater, bang, the lights went dark. All lights went dark. Then there is an Internet troll who comments on the entire performance of this drama. Isn't this also a process of killing the rose? We have designed such a link. Then, in order to enhance the experience, we even designed a closing link, that is, we may have a person standing at the door and saying: "The show is not over yet!" That is, we have to turn this into a play, changing the inside and outside of the play twice, so that the intensity of the drama becomes super strong. He was originally a very weak and mediocre person, but under such a new package, he suddenly changed into two levels, both inside and outside the play. Finally, our drama happened and the performance began. When the performance started, it was no surprise that at the beginning of the performance, especially the singing part, it was...because they attracted a lot of audiences, even a lot of audiences who were professional listeners to musicals, and they couldn't stand it. Then our last light went dark, and then an internet troll came out and started trolling-this was also performed by an actor hired by our friend. He squawked for a while and then said: Your performance in this play is really bad. Which of them sang correctly? Something like that. Then there is an audience, and there is only one audience who thinks: Hey, what is this for? She just stood up, painfully, and then she was ready to leave. When we left, we did design a door closer. He said: Sorry madam, our performance is not over yet, please leave later. Then the woman-she must not be a girl, she must be in her 40s- couldn't bear it, was in pain, and then started to curse. I really started to curse in the theater and said, what are you doing? No one can sing in tune. Isn't this a lie? Are you still not letting people leave now? About three or four minutes after I said this, the switch popped! Pushed again. Then the lights came back on and the door opened.
Q: Can you confirm something? That woman was also hired by you?
A: No, what happened on the spot was completely beyond everyone's expectations. There are too many uncontrollable factors here, which is very interesting.
Then the lights came on and we said: This is a show. Then everyone started eating, drinking, and having fun again, and it was over. Of course, some of the crew members must be a little angry, especially the promoter. Of course, I tell you: this is just our attempt to achieve an effect. But I do have to admit that this conflict has always existed between the theater and the crew. It was this incident that triggered a series of events that followed. The female audience member who suddenly stood up was particularly angry. After she got out, she called the police and called 110. They said someone was illegally detained in that theater. Then the police really came, and when they came, they saw that these people were laughing, drinking beer, and eating cakes-a celebration party in a sense-eating pizza, and then being happy, without any problems at all. How can there be any illegal detention? It's just nonsense. But after the police left, the girl probably felt unhappy mentally or emotionally, so she kept posting these messages on Weibo. She thought you were doing too badly, so she kept posting. Then it's possible that this thing is stitched together and that it comes into being as an event. It is very difficult to sew. The next day, I received another call. The Public Security Bureau asked you to come to the police station, so I went to the police station. Then he talked about it in detail. Then the policeman was also very puzzled, he said, what are you doing? Did you offend someone? Hey, actually no, that girl couldn't stand it. She made seven or eight phone calls all day long. I said that we had watched it several times and there was no such thing. But this matter became a thing, and then many people started to (accuse us). Then we explained on Weibo: There is no such thing as closing the door to prevent the audience from going out, it is just for an effect. And we have all designed it. I also told the audience at the beginning that we would have an artistic effect after the performance - of course we didn't say that specifically. For example, we would close the door for 5 minutes... Doesn't that mean the answer is just on top of the riddle! We said that we would have an artistic output later. Of course, this did not take into account that some people would not be able to accept it, and it was indeed beyond her expectations. What was very interesting at the time was that many viewers thought the show was particularly good because of this incident! (Evaluations of this drama) are very polarized. Some say, "Oh, I can't stand this, it's too cruel." Others say, "Holy crap, this is so interesting. I've never seen such a good drama!" (This drama) has two layers, and it just does this kind of thing, because in the final analysis, it is still a drama. Then the police also said that this was not the case, and people thought, oh, it's not easy for you, because doing this drama has caused so many things. It's okay, it's okay! What should be done. Since calling the police was of no use, the girl immediately reported it to all supervision (channels), such as the fire alarm, saying that the fire protection was not good enough; and then complained to 12345... It was equivalent to forming a Ministry of Culture, this ministry, that ministry... Seven or eight ministries said they would come over for a joint review. But to be honest, ours does not constitute a drama in the true sense. In fact, ours is called a cultural exchange activity, which is actually OK. And the police also think it is OK, because it is to organize everyone to watch the play together and communicate after watching the play. This is completely okay, at least at the time there was no problem. It is not a theater in the true sense, like the National Center for the Performing Arts, and it does not sell tickets on any big ticket. However, it is disguised as a drama, which is very mysterious. Our musical caused her to actually confuse the relationship between cultural exchange activities and drama. Therefore, it is actually unrealistic to ask for an artist studio for drama or a real theater. Moreover, we did not say that we would perform every day and charge every day. We only said that there would be an event temporarily, which was like me organizing a bomb party in a villa. This did not involve any legal issues at all. But at this time, in fact, this incident caused some dissatisfaction with the landlord who was at the sculpture stand at the time. He would feel, hey, youHe Fa, you... He might have had some conflicts with my partner before this incident, that is, with Shaohua, so they just took this opportunity to say, ah, you do these arts every day, and finally the police were called in. It's very annoying. Because of this incident, our place may face demolition, so we talked a lot. Then he said, you can no longer use this space anyway, but I have actually invested a lot of capital costs, and I also paid a lot in rent. At that time, they used such an incident to drive me away in a sense. In fact, my partner felt that He Fa you didn't do a good job. This is probably what happened. In fact, to be honest, this is the first day I am talking about this matter, because I have never described this matter in this way before, and it has always been a settling process. I just said it today.
Q: Let's stretch the timeline to November last year. I remember judging from the push from P4 Theater that our theater should be doing some workshop-type plays such as "Love Drama". On November 11, the country issued the "Twenty Points", which meant that there was a certain degree of liberalization in policy. However, many people may think that the implementation of the "Twenty Points" at the grassroots level is not very good. Do you remember some of the circumstances at that time? Do you feel like some restrictions are easing in November?
A: Kang Hae Joo's scene (note: the drama "Kiss You, Kill Me") seems to be around November 20th (note: based on the push promotion, it is November 26th). That scene was actually quite thrilling. We performed that scene here, but we were also reported. It was very strange, and we didn't even write an address at that time, but we just didn't know who reported it. In a sense, (management) was quite strict at that time. We actually incubated many small theater troupes here before, but they did not perform here. They performed in various venues we contacted, but then because of the epidemic, they suddenly said they were not allowed to perform. This kind of thing happens quite a lot. This problem has been happening before November. We have been reported inexplicably for the reason of epidemic prevention.
Q: It means that these things may not have changed much in November, even after the policy is issued, right?
A: It's actually quite strict. I remember that there were several QR codes downstairs to scan, and one day, two days, and three days (note: refers to the number of days before nucleic acid testing). The update frequency of Beijing's Health Treasure was getting faster and faster, so it was quite strict. I also need to look at the specific record. Later, many people were sealed off. One building after another in the community was sealed off, and no one could come. Let alone the party itself (whether it would be reported). (Check the WeChat group chat records.) On November 11, you see someone saying, "Who is coming today?" "I want to come, but I can't come, because the school is sunny." Later, more and more people who participated in the "Love Drama" project were unable to come. When the recruitment started in early November, there were quite a lot of people and it went smoothly. In the middle and late stages, there were fewer and fewer people.
Q: Is there a record of how many people were supposed to show up in the end and how many people actually showed up?
A: Because we are organizing such a theatrical event, the number of people is actually not fixed, and we do not have a strong binding, and we will not say "you have to come" or "you can't come if you don't come". Therefore, some people just say they can't come because of the epidemic - we don't know if it's an excuse or it's true - so if they can't come, then they can't come. It is true that after November, (prevention and control) repeated many times, many people stopped coming, about 20 people stopped coming. But in the end the workshop was held. It was an ongoing workshop, about 2 to 3 times a week. People will continue to come over - for example, if someone has lifted the lockdown, they can still come. Another interesting thing is that many people in Yanjiao have been banned. Some of our friends live in the Yanjiao area and cannot come to Beijing at all, which is quite painful. At that time, when we looked at the map, once we opened it, there were all the explosion points, red, one square after another. Some of them were charged at every turn, which was very strict. Including us here (note: referring to the current address of P4 Theater), the security guards would often come up during that time and say that you are not allowed to have more than a few people here, which is very strange. In my opinion, this must be no problem! But it seems that because of the policy, they are very stuck. And there are some people who specifically come to report - which is even more interesting, I didn't expect anyone to specifically report these things, (but there are) a lot of reports.
Q: I would like to know, at that time, did you believe that a turnaround in policy liberalization was coming soon? Or do you think it's impossible to predict?
A: In fact, at that time, to be honest, my mentality was already quite depressed. Last year, I was also banned. The first one in the community only lasted two weeks and 14 days. I went to Hangzhou at that time, and there were some projects at the Tianmuli Art Museum in Hangzhou. Sometimes it was said that I could go, and sometimes it was said that I was not allowed to go. Then when I came back from Hangzhou, sometimes it was said that I was not allowed to go back, and sometimes I was told that I could go back, which made people panic. At that time, it was very painful to do something with fear every day.
Q: In other words, you never thought that one day you would really let go of this kind of thing?
A: Yes. At that time, I felt very depressed. I saw that all the shops in many buildings had closed down, which was very sad. On the other hand, at that time, we could also feel that the economy was actually getting more and more sluggish, and it became increasingly difficult for everyone to consume, including for us to make money.
Q: Another detail is that at the end of November, there were actually some mass activities in Beijing calling for the relaxation of prevention and control measures. If you have experienced it, can you talk about it?
A: Yes. Is that the one at Liangmaqiao? I just heard that some of my friends went there. Of course, they might have gone there to join in the fun, but I don't know. Because I was still working on the project "Love Drama" at the time. For me personally, I felt that completing the project itself was enough. Whether they can get out or not is their choice and decision. For me, I don't care about those things. What I care about is that I do what I am doing well; what I care about is that everyone comes here and whether they can find what they want, and I am responsible for their rights and interests. This is what I'm going to do. I remember that a friend came to the set of "Love Drama" and said, "What are you doing here? You have to take action!" I said, what we are doing now is action. If you want to take action, you can do it yourself. We support you and encourage you, but you cannot do this kind of kidnapping.
Q: Now we may want to talk about the beginning of December again. I went to investigate some information about the two public accounts "P4 Theater" and "P4 Theater and You" at that time. I noticed that from December to January, you guys seemed to have basically not posted anything for two months.
A: I didn't send anything because I was all over the moon. (Note: "Yang" is the colloquial expression of "the COVID-19 test result is positive.")
Q: Are you actually all on hiatus? Aren't there some activities still hanging on?
A: That one is very real, it is Quan Yang. I don't know if this is the case in your school. Anyway, for us, the disease here is very fast. One person got it first, and then they all became infected, and one after another they all ended up at home. Then I will talk about my own personal experience. I was in a lot of pain after having my erection. During the days when I had a fever due to the COVID-19 epidemic, I was so burned that I felt dizzy all of a sudden. I feel like it's much more serious than the usual cold and fever. For me, a lot of emotional or emotional things came out during the time when I had a fever, so it was actually quite a long process for me personally. So from that time on, my overall mood was very down (depressed), very depressed. Then I can also feel that many of my friends around me have reached a stage where they are very uncomfortable emotionally and physically during the period after they have recovered from the disease but have not yet opened up. At that time, I lived near the Lama Temple. I remember that sometimes when I was walking or riding a bicycle, I could feel that there was no one everywhere and the whole street was empty. At that time, there were still yellow sand and fallen leaves. I feel that some people are very afraid of the sun. For example, some old people are afraid of the sun and lock themselves up. Some people only go outside after the sun has passed. Very rundown (street scene). Of course, it will definitely be different from now. Now it is a very vibrant state. At that time, everyone was very panicked. Those who did not have it were very panicked, fearing that they would be infected; most of the people who had it were in great pain.
Q: Can you talk about the sequelae after you and those around you got COVID-19?
A: It's okay to tell the truth around me. During that time, I felt that my body was getting worse anyway, and I felt out of breath and so on... Personally, I felt a little bit, but I think I should be fully recovered now. Of course, what about influenza A? Anyway, I didn't get influenza A.
Q: I ask about the sequelae because many people around me will have COVID-19 and their mental state will not be very good within a month.
A: Anyway, my mental state was very bad at that time. I don't know if it was called having COVID-19.
Q: Do you feel it is related to the epidemic? Or maybe it's just related to my situation at that time.
A: Well, of course it has something to do with your own situation. I felt very uncomfortable at that time, and as you just said, I didn't post anything on the official account.
Q: Because the official account is mainly run by you.
A: Yes, I am responsible. The official account could not be used, so it was completely shut down. At that time, I was lying like a scrapped machine. I was in pain every day. It was really painful and uncomfortable. I would think: Is this the end of the epidemic? Is it going to end in this way? The way everyone got it quickly...then why didn't they get it earlier? Why did it take so long to wait? Then all the friends around me got it. It should break out after a while. I think it probably starts from December and lasts until the Chinese New Year. At that time, the whole thing is in the process of shock. Of course, I gave myself some comfort and said: Oh, just don't do anything while you have a cold and a fever. Take a rest, take a rest.
Q: So you really didn't do anything, or did you do something?
A: I really didn't do it because I couldn't do it. At that time, you said it was impossible for you to ask everyone to rehearse the show. I couldn't arrange it, everyone was in that state, very down, the whole person was in a very droopy state, and no one knew what they were doing. And at that time, I felt that the emotions were also in a very mixed state, and the whole person and the whole social state were very mixed and disordered. I think now everyone seems to be slowly yearning for the future again, but at that time I was in a state where I didn't want to think about anything.
Q: Did you especially discuss the topic of COVID-19 when you met with your friends?
A: Let's talk. I'll definitely talk. First of all, ask whether Yang is Yang. At that time, we would also talk about grabbing medicines, some people were more serious, and how to distribute medicines.
Q: What do you usually communicate about grabbing drugs? Will they discuss such issues as whose illness is more serious or less severe, what causes it, etc.?
A: This will definitely happen, and at that time (they will ask): You are seriously ill, do you want medicine? We will also communicate at that time. I immediately called my mother after I found out about the release. My hometown is in Jiangsu. I told my mother to buy fever-reducing medicine as soon as possible, white plus black or something like that. Buy it as soon as possible.
Q: Have you bought it?
A: I bought it. I got the news early, so I went to buy it. At that time, there was no need to rush to buy medicine. (The peak of the epidemic infection) was at least two or three weeks late before it started to spread to Jiangsu. Beijing was the fastest, and (symptoms) were very severe in Beijing at that time, but it was already very mild when it reached Jiangsu. Anyway, my parents said that we should just have a fever for a day or two and be fine. They grabbed a bunch of them and gave them to friends and neighbors.
Q: At that time, were there any cases where an elderly person died due to illness?
A: I've heard some stories around me, and there's also talk about one of my friends' relatives passing away. That's true. There are also some cases, for example, when a friend's parents are older and get seriously ill, it especially involves grabbing the COVID-19 drug. That COVID-19 drug (note: refers to Pfizer's specific drug Paxlovid) is very expensive, costing more than 2,000 yuan. Because of that, many people cannot get it and have no money to buy it. What should they do? That was a very painful experience. Everyone will also discuss. Some people are very anxious. There are elderly people in the family, who are in their 70s, 80s, or 90s. What should they do? Do you want to prepare this medicine? But like me, my grandpa is over 90 years old. If he can get it, then it will be fine. At least from my side, I never thought about it. I don't think I need to buy some COVID-19 medicines to stockpile. But I heard that someone said that he wanted to buy some of this new coronavirus medicine to prepare in case the elderly couldn't resist it. There are people who would make such preparations, but I have not.
Q: At that time, many people actually read some news or information related to the new crown with an almost obsessive-compulsive mentality. What was your state at that time? Will you pay much attention to this information?
A: Not paying attention at all. I think it'll be fine if it's over. But one thing is very interesting, that is, I let go after it was over, and some people even asked me to wear a mask. For example, I want to go to a supermarket, and the waiter says: Hey, put on the mask quickly. I feel very sad.
Q: How would they react if you told them I had it?
A: Yes, I said: I can get through it, I'm already done with it. I'm already exposed, what kind of mask do you want me to wear? I don't know if that's what you mean by obsessive-compulsive disorder, but that thing keeps coming back, and it's quite painful for me. Even now when we walk on the street, so many people wear masks, which makes me feel uncomfortable.
Q: Do you really dislike masks?
A: Actually, sometimes, especially when I see my children wearing them, I feel quite uncomfortable. Why? Because there are many tiny fibers in the mask itself, if they are sucked into the lungs, they cannot be discharged first, which is even worse than PM2.5. Second, when you wear a mask, your oxygen supply rate will definitely decrease, which I think will have a great impact on brain development and cardiopulmonary function. You no longer need to wear a mask in this situation. Everyone has achieved herd immunity. Why do you still insist on wearing a mask?
Q: And wearing a mask is still mandatory in many places now.
A: Yes, I feel very painful. I think it doesn't matter adults, you are still targeting children, and it is a very coercive behavior. He doesn't understand the child. In fact, the so-called child wearing it means that the parent allows him to wear it, which is to transfer his (parent's) fear to the control of the child. This is particularly bad and unscientific. We said, let's wear it on hazy days, right? It's no problem outdoors. It's a sunny day and the air is so good. Why are you wearing a mask? I can't understand this. And the virus is gone.
Q: In fact, we have almost talked about the peak period. Speaking of post-peak, when will theaters resume? In other words, when will everyone come back and start activities again?
A: That would be after the Chinese New Year. It will slowly recover after the Chinese New Year. We started working on the "Riding the Wind and Waves" project in February. Of course, the title is quite funny, that is: We will set sail again in February. In a sense, we were also responding to the depressive state of the whole person at that time, that is to say: what has to be done is in the past, let us face the future again, let us face hope again, and then do this (new drama project). Just after the New Year, everyone is in a state of readiness and renewed vitality. Then starting from February, we started doing these scenes, which was pretty good.
Q: Are there quite a few people coming back?
A: Hey, yes. I felt like everyone was very excited when I signed up this time. For example, the students who are returning to school say "I want to participate" and "I want to participate", and they are all in a very excited state. I can feel that in February, after everyone got rid of the epidemic situation, they wanted to catch something new. But actually, for example, it's April now, everything has been relaxed, and there are a lot of activities now. When there are a lot of activities, it is actually not that easy to recruit people. But at that point in February, there weren't actually that many activities, (but) everyone started to have that kind of impulse and energy.
Q: Got it. Around February, everything started to get on track, and everyone's excitement suddenly emerged.
A: Yes, especially for college students. Because all the classes were online before, otherwise the college students would be imprisoned in a campus, unable to go out anywhere, or all the classes would be online, which made them feel very aggrieved. It is a very liberating process for them to reopen the school and reconnect with society and people.
Q: Is it also a release for your own mentality? Were you completely released at that time, or were you still in a state of immersion?
A: Yes, my body recovered in February, and I started to slowly accumulate energy to meet new opportunities in 2023.
Q: That is to say, do you feel that after the New Year in February, it will be a relatively new node for you, your project, and the audience, as everyone is back. Another question I want to ask is: During the peak period, you said that you were completely in a state of shutdown. Did the silence during this period bring you any inspiration?
A: First of all, you see, during the entire epidemic, people were locked up most of the time, right? For example, if you are a couple, you may discuss the relationship a lot. This is different from the previous model of going to work and coming back at night. Many things can be released. But when you are locked together, a lot of things about two people will be exposed even more. So to be honest, sometimes I can really feel that everyone's creations are based on looking inward. Especially during these years of the epidemic, everyone has no way to find an outlet outside and cannot build relationships with other people, so build relationships with yourself. Including Kang Hae Joo's scene, he actually looked inward, as did the "Porphyria" at that time. It was either one person or two people struggling to explore it. There will be more (such works).
Q: Are you in this state yourself? For example, you are also locked up with your girlfriend, so the first thing you think of is this example, right?
A: Yes.
And then we actually did a pretty interesting art project at that time. In 2021, on January 2, we did a play called "The Howler on the Rooftop." We don't know, this is a bit prophetic in a sense, we know that Shanghai... Wuhan started at that time... Oh, Wuhan was the earliest. This thing is quite interesting. We later saw what happened in Shanghai and it was very painful. It was really painful. At that time, we could see a lot of that kind of... Because we still have many friends in Shanghai, that kind of fear and anxiety was very, very great. The fear was not the fear of the virus, but the fear of people. I can't eat! Some are really trying to grab food, which is very painful. We were actually in Tianmu at that time, and we also had a performance at Crystal Square. At that time, I recruited a lot of friends in Hangzhou. For example, once, there was a performance tomorrow. When we were rehearsing around 10 o'clock in the evening, we had a very fun process of responding. We were in the small square, everyone shouted to each other, and used a shouting method to make a sound. But just because of that shouting, the last performance was canceled. This is amazing. I think of something. Everyone seems to be afraid, or some people are afraid to hear this sound. When he hears this sound, he feels: Hey, you can't make it anymore. This is a fact, I have encountered this situation many times.
Q: Around March of this year, you started the "Personal Chronicle" project. Actually, I'm quite curious. Was it the process of inward searching that made you decide to do this project when you were locked up at home due to the epidemic, or was it that you had wanted to do it for a long time?
A: Oh, actually when we make this thing, we do it first, and then when we do it, we feel: Oh, this is it. Then I went back and described the matter more clearly, and then started recruiting again. It was always like this. We have been doing co-creation plays since 15 or 16 years ago. In fact, we had them back then. For example, we recruited four or five people in a short period of time, within a month, and we would arrange the play, including music, synthesis, lighting, lines, dance, etc., and we would make it. In fact, everyone does not have such clear responsibilities. If you are in charge of dancing, you can only dance; if I am in charge of lighting, I... it is not like that. Like some professional theater troupes, the division of responsibilities is clear. It's not like that. It is a very loose and free state of mutual creation and stimulation. It was not until 2019 that we started to work on it. For example, the "Real Image" project and the following P4U project were generated in this way one at a time. Hey, this is fun. But for example, when we encountered - for example, when we first started acting in 2019, we did a play called "Psychedelic". At that time, we discovered some problems, which was this kind of nepotism. That's why we made several corrections later to avoid this happening. So it's like doing it first, and then discovering problems while doing it. When we release the real recruitment or some plans, we will list these rules in more detail. So the "personal journal" seems to us to be one... Of course, there are many detailed rules and regulations in the personal journal. These detailed rules and regulations are mainly because many accidents happened at that time. For me, many of them are things that I can't control. Also, when it comes to acting, this is the particularly troublesome thing, which is the ambiguity between reality and fiction, or let's say, the relationship between creation and life... Ah, we started laughing again, and we started to understand each other again! Ha ha. After all, I am the theater manager, so I have to coordinate this matter constantly, constantly, constantly. Moreover, there are too many things that can be projected on me as my symbol or my image, and they can be thrown and projected on me at every turn. On the one hand, I have to shoulder the responsibility, and on the other hand, I have to think that this matter cannot continue like this, otherwise in the end, many things that are originally good will fall apart. I think it is quite a pity.
Q: In fact, "personal history" is quite related to some experiences like yours. I remember you said that you hope to do a "personal biography" for everyone who leads a drama or a project in the future.
A: There is such an entrance. We first use a description of a person to let everyone know, oh, so this person is like this. Then we start again. I think this is very important: what kind of person you are, you first describe it to everyone very frankly in front of the camera. Everyone also has such a preparation to start the project later. This also allows each other to have a confirmation and guarantee, otherwise it is often imaginary: I just read your words, I am just an imaginary thing, and I don't know you that well. Then when something happens to you, I feel that I don't agree with you, or I feel that you are wrong. At that time, I felt that this was not good, so we should make the connection first at the beginning. So I also discovered this recruitment. For example, at the beginning, we did a lot of recruiting, and we would receive hundreds of resumes at every turn. But in fact, that was an illusion, because many people... came to the interview with the mentality of applying for jobs. In fact, you shouldn't hire these people because: first, you can't provide funds or wages; what the two of them may want is a play produced by a director, and they don't want to co-create it. In fact, they don't see this clearly, which actually increases the cost of communication. So later on, our creations or our recruitment became more and more written... Many people said, hey, what the hell are you doing? can't read.
Q: Is it a bit like searching for the stratosphere?
A: Yes, yes, yes, yes. That is, as the targeting becomes stronger and stronger, the connection will become better and better. So, later on, we actually discovered that sometimes you don't need to write something too general, but you have to put out the most authentic things about each person, and you can attract the most like-minded people, and this kind of like-mindedness is so important. This scent congeniality is the feeling of a bee meeting a flower. So later on, we may recruit two or three people just by sending out a recruitment call, but these two or three people will be enough, so there is no need to recruit so many people. It's possible that your words are flying out of control, and that's no problem.
Q: There is another question that may be more open, that is, from the lockdown to the relaxation, many people will say: we have returned to normalcy. Wondering what you think about this issue? Because actually P4 Theater looks at some of the push introductions I have observed before, and it is something that is not normal, or even abnormal. Do you think that after the epidemic is over, there will be a return to a so-called normalcy? Or do you feel that something has changed irreversibly? It doesn't have to be theater, you can also talk about your own personal experiences.
A: Oh, sure. Regarding the idea of normalcy, there is definitely no going back to the past, that's for sure. First of all, this experience cannot be erased. These three years are indelible memories for everyone. And to be honest, the entire international situation has undergone great changes. From a macro perspective, this is a human movement. The epidemic has actually left us a lot of treasures, asking us to think about the reasons for those things. If a disaster similar or greater than this happens again, how should we face it? This is what I feel particularly important to reflect on, and one of the points here is the relationship between people. I remember that from the earliest days, I could feel that there were many faults in the relationships between people, such as mutual distrust, conflicts and contradictions, etc. It doesn't mean that these things will disappear as soon as the epidemic is over. As for those things that are stimulated, we need to use a more careful and clever eye to find those things, and then think about how to solve them.
Including this actually involves a lot of micro-power things, as small as a power relationship between people. It's very simple. Let's talk about the big fire in Xinjiang. Why can one person lock the door of a house? How can it be done like this? What does it mean behind the scenes? So how will we face it in the future? It doesn't mean that we should reflect on it when disaster strikes. But we now have to think again: What should we do when we face a new disaster soon or in the future? I think there will be no shortage of disasters.
Q: What I mean is that you feel that this normal state may not have existed, and there have always been some hidden dangers, including some hidden dangers in human life as a whole that have been highlighted in this disaster, but this is something we have to consider all the time.
A: Because I am born in the 90s, and you are born in the 00s, right? You see, we are already 10 years apart. My experience of these 33 years is too exaggerated. Just think about it, reform and opening up, China's development history, I just stepped on the line and walked all the way - until the epidemic. To be honest, it wasn't until the epidemic that I felt this "pop" suddenly change. Before the epidemic, I was always very confident. I always thought, wow, how wonderful this future is. But this epidemic just hit... I wonder if you have thought that since you were young, you have experienced those disasters, such as floods and earthquakes, and there is no problem? Even if there is a financial crisis, we can solve it just by relying on our great leadership. Look at this economy, right? The Internet economy, wow. How awesome we are, what about Huawei phones... hahaha. The feeling is that the epidemic suddenly came and triggered a series of things that I think are systemic. For example, the simplest thing is that young people have great difficulty finding jobs. Then everyone has to take the postgraduate entrance examination and the public examination, which is already very abnormal. There would be no chance.
Q: Does this matter have a lot to do with the epidemic?
A: I think it is a trigger, but what emerges from this trigger is actually a lot of things we need to think about. Well, we say it is a natural disaster, but there are also man-made disasters. How to deal with natural disasters and man-made disasters? What I mean to say is that this period of history that we have experienced together is a treasure house. This treasure house can be constantly recalled and reviewed, and some things in this history can be brought out to make us new preparations to build something - and those things are actually what we have been missing for a long time.
Well, for example, as far as theatrical activities are concerned, there has always been something missing, that is: how can everyone discuss it together, just like what I just mentioned about "Killing That Rose", how can we reach a consensus? In our small ecosystem - whether we are a crew or a group of people, how can we establish a trusting relationship instead of a strong confrontation with each other, instead of a quarrel? And it's not even like, "Hey, we can't solve it, I'll call a third party to come over and solve it." It shouldn't be like this. It's like children fighting, right? Children have to fight when they encounter problems. "I want to tell the teacher!" and "Let's see, how to deal with this and this, and how to deal with this and this." That is, is there any other way besides suing the teacher? In the same way, in fact, after the epidemic, what we feel is the constant "I want to sue the teacher" things, and these things have been strengthened. What's particularly obvious is that in recent years, complaints and calls to 12345 have become deeply rooted in everyone's hearts. Damn it, this thing makes me think: Why do I have to complain so often? Of course, this is also related to Taobao, Pinduoduo, etc., because I do get cheated all the time, haha. So where is our other communication? How do we establish a trusting relationship? I think when we return to normalcy now, we have to make efforts in this regard.
Including a few details, I just received a call yesterday from a friend of mine and a girl who has acted in our crew. She once met a pedestrian on the road. She said that the pedestrian suddenly felt so hungry that he couldn't walk. She was quite concerned about him and asked, "What's wrong with you?" He said I can't eat and I don't have a penny left. Can you lend me some money? My friend was very kind. She not only bought him food, drink and water, but also gave him money to keep him going back to his hometown. Then what happened to that person? I had a phone call with him yesterday and talked about this matter. It was because he had a good chat with a girl on a dating website, and then the girl told her to come to a place in Yanjiao. In fact, he was defrauded. He was taken to a pyramid scheme group and stayed in it for more than a year. After defrauding all the money from his friends and relatives, the pyramid schemes group was finally eliminated in a sense, and he was lost on the streets. Then he had no one to rely on, so he went to a shelter. They could only stay in the shelter for one week, and he was kicked out after one week. After being kicked out, he didn't have a penny to do anything, and he couldn't even borrow a penny from all the trust relationships he had, so he was hungry. A person in such a state. I just find it very interesting.
He now has a lot of debt. I contacted this person yesterday because I read an article on a public account. Someone said that I was fucking cheated. Someone lent me money and said he had no money to go home for dinner. I lent him the money, but he blocked me. I said, hey, this is very similar to what happened to my friend. Then let me ask, has that person paid you back? Is that true or false? Then the friend contacted that person again. But what he said should be true, but he didn't pay back the money. Then I made a call to this boy yesterday, and he told me about his own experience: He originally had the purpose of falling in love and getting married, but ended up being deceived into a pyramid scheme and borrowed hundreds of thousands of dollars from relatives and friends around him. Now a person is working in Guangzhou and cannot make much money every day. Then many credit cards are overdrafted, and countless banks collect debts from him every day. This is also a real person. What should he do with his life? I think, in just 30 years, we have gone from a planned economy for 40 years to a market economy now. Many people have made money, and many people will become people like this, or even what we call the "Sanhe Great God". Then he said, oh, I have a friend who sold his kidney for 280,000 yuan, and I want to sell it too. This is how they live. If I take this 280,000, I might be able to return all the money. He couldn't find a way to survive. He was locked and locked by these layers of things.
Q: The epidemic has made this situation worse.
A: It keeps getting worse. Then he really said that he asked many people to borrow money. If he wanted to go home, he could still make an excuse or even ask for some food. Either begging for food or asking for some help. No one paid any attention to him, no one. Everyone's attitude towards him was: Oh, I've seen too many people like you, so stay away. Including some policemen and so on, he asked (policeman) if you could (lend me money), and he said that the policeman said directly: Shall I lend you money? I meet hundreds of people like you every day, should I borrow them all? So in the end my friend did give him a few hundred dollars. He said that he would remember that feeling for the rest of his life, it was very warm. That person was extremely desperate, because he had deceived all his relatives and friends, and no one believed him. Everyone blocked him as soon as he spoke to him, or said: Pay him back quickly, or I will kill you if you don't pay back, and so on. His parents definitely don't care, because he has told too many lies before, because of pyramid schemes. What to do at that moment? When I think of these things, I find them quite interesting, and they are actually somewhat related to this theme.
Q: I just got some new ideas from some of the things you said, and I want to ask a few more questions. You just mentioned that there are more and more frictions and collisions between people. In fact, I am quite curious: although there may not be much contact with epidemic prevention personnel after the relaxation, it may be that in November everyone will experience contact with epidemic prevention personnel and those people who were hidden under protective clothing as we called them "Dabai" at the time. What was your experience with them?
A: We had friends here who thought it was "Dabai" because there were still jobs like this and we couldn't find any other jobs. In fact, there were some things that I thought were very funny at the time. They were not related to Dabai, but to the so-called "big data". For example, in April last year, I was monitored by the electronic fence, and it was said that that area was closed and you couldn't go out, and so on. But actually I was already in Hangzhou at that time, so I ignored the call. When I came back from Hangzhou, he called me suddenly and said: You are going to be quarantined, and I am going to put a seal on you now. I said this was a month ago. He asked me if I had been to that place, and I told him that I had been to that place a month ago. He said, "That doesn't matter, you will be sealed now." I said: No, please tell me what time and where the big data (shows me) is. He said: No matter, big data said so. Later, a neighborhood committee in Haidian called me and said: If you don't cooperate, I'll call the police. I said: Cooperate, cooperate, cooperate. You see, I have been outside for a long time, so there must be no risk, and the codes are all green. Two days later, he said: Are you going to do this? I said: I no longer live in Haidian, I live in Chaoyang. He said: Okay, I'll transfer your phone number to Chaoyang. Chaoyang has never contacted me. I think this sense of absurdity is very interesting. (I have to) deal with many such absurd things. (The other party) just throws the word "big data" into the air. Can you tell me which one, which point, and which thing about you? He just blocked me casually. I encountered this situation several times: He said, have you been somewhere? The thing is we haven't been there, and that's even been the case a few times. Of course it wasn't me who met it, it was my girlfriend who met it. She had never been to that place, and suddenly she didn't receive a call saying that you were blocked and we were going to install a monitor or something on you now. I find it very baffling. You can provide evidence for whatever you want. You can't just accuse someone casually. I have encountered many ridiculous things like this during this epidemic, not just one (incident), such as pop-up window 4, pop-up window 3, pop-up window 3, and pop-up windows again... and then somehow it was eliminated all at once. The funniest thing is that when a friend of ours was looking for a job, he pretended to be Dabai. He said that I specialize in clearing pop-ups. As soon as you give them to me, I will clear them for you. There's a lot of room for manipulation and a lot of room for error. The mistake may be: "I didn't see this" or "I saw it wrong", but no one admits these mistakes and no one is willing to take responsibility for them. Where does this responsibility fall? Dump it on big data.
Q: Do you think big data has no ability to bear mistakes.
A: That's right, so some people were imprisoned alive for several months, and were taken out alive and isolated for a long time.
Q: I wanted to mention "Dabai" just now, because there are many people hiding under the "Dabai" clothes. Just like the big data you just mentioned, they don't have the ability to bear mistakes. In fact, they also avoid the need to bear mistakes to some extent, thus exceeding their rights and responsibilities.
A: Yes, just like the last time I answered the phone, I still have the recording. If you want to listen, I can play it for you. "You won't cooperate, right? Then I'll call the police." He doesn't communicate with you at all. I said: OK, tell me what time and time I am, what is the content of my record, and whether I am quarantined or not. He wouldn't say it, he said it was big data, otherwise I would call the police. I feel that this kind of blaming behavior has really destroyed a lot of the credibility that was originally established. Credibility is very important. As an integral part of a national machine, it is to maintain this trust relationship. But many people destroy this relationship very easily. Is there pressure on him behind this? Or is it that he has been suppressed time and time again in this relationship and has to resort to means? This is what I'm thinking about. I also particularly understand the person behind "Dabai" you just mentioned, because my friend is a very timid person, but according to his own description, when he puts on that clothes and gives various commands, he immediately feels that he has some kind of power.
Q: Did you experience any material problems in November when the lockdown was more severe?
A: No, I have never encountered it. Never encountered it.
Q: Have you never encountered this in Beijing?
A: Yes. I didn't encounter it in Hangzhou last April.
Q: Also, have you ever encountered any situation where you were discriminated against after having sex? At that time, I heard that some workers and service personnel at the grassroots level would not be allowed to work after they were exposed to the sun.
A: No, no, this has never happened.
Q: That's pretty much what we want to know. If you have anything to add, you can add more.
A: Let me say one more thing. P4 Theater ran from that big space to this small room. In fact, it was definitely because of the excuse of the new coronavirus epidemic, or some kind of driving force generated by the prohibition of gatherings. Such a movement (referring to epidemic prevention and control) caused the space to shrink from a very large space that could accommodate hundreds of people to a space that could only accommodate dozens or even a dozen people. However, such a small space has carried all discussions and some small performances after 21 years (P4 Theater the year of relocation). For example, when we performed "Iceberg" here on January 1, 2022, we recruited 15 audience members and 8 crew members, a total of 23 people, and also performed many performances here. I think the relationship between such a contraction and the epidemic is also very interesting.
Of course, now that we are free, we can go to various large and interesting places to perform, and then we can perform for hundreds of audiences at a time. I feel that in such a shrinking process, at least we have not given up on expressing ourselves, and we have not given up because the environment does not allow us to speak out. We can still do this, and I think this is a very valuable thing. Who knows when it will open? But even if we are not open, we are still moving.
Q: Do you still have any plans to return to a big "home" like the previous sculpture table?
A: Ah, of course. There are actually quite a few such spaces now, and we will also have cooperation. We had held a performance in that boxing ring before, and there were more than 140 people there. We can have relationships with them in various spaces. Of course, we also did a show in Jingshan Park, which was a purely outdoor scene. It was a lot of fun.
Q: Do you think it's more interesting to perform in different scenes and spaces, or is it more interesting to perform in a fixed space?
A: I think we need to be more and more open.
Q: Maybe even if you finally return to that big fixed space, you will find various places to try in the future?
A: Yes, you must go out. Drama is not something that happens in a fixed place.
Q: Okay, that actually brings it to an end here, thank you.